Present: Kobun (K) · Ruth · Mary Kate (MK) · Ann · Angie · Gert · Glenna · Nena · Joyce · Judy C. · Hathaway · Carol · Barbara (B)
April 14, 1975. Hathaway's House.
K: Idea meeting face to face... very narrower and very particular sense it has to be discussed, ultimate and final concern of our life. In broader sense it can be seen anywhere in any process of learning, teaching, or learning, training, sharing. Like, when we... that teacup is very beautiful, but how it appeared in that way, if you practice a little, by one glance you may know brief knowledge about what kind of clay, what kind of glaze, what kind of heat. But myself, I cannot understand why it come like that. Simply, it's very nice. Who made? You did it? (To Hathaway, who nods yes)
Subject of men-ju to do with this. What this means, my sense of nice. This is nice. Desire appear, wish appear. Maybe I can try to make such thing. Not just enjoying after-process of this existence, but maybe I can make another kind with same manner. Then who made it, how made it... it was made... actually to really know how it appeared in this way is to retrace the one's efforts and its own history. And we actually, not just imagination, retracing our knowledge, imagining how it went, but step by step you learn by your hand.
Face means actual action, hand means you touch, actually work on the subject. Same way painting, calligraphy, carpentry, cooking, sewing, even sweeping, even taking bath you learn. So in broader sense of men-ju we are within it. Like family life is one great opportunity of men-ju, how to live, how to form ourselves.
Subject we have studied few times here is to understand what this men-ju mean, and whether we have such... we are... the subject is understood by our sense of practice. Teacher and student, master, disciple relation was discussed in Dōgen Zenji's material. Like Shakyamuni Buddha and Mahākāshyapa,1 Bodhidharma and Eka,2 Rujing3 and Dōgen himself, Fifth Patriarch and Hui Neng, Sixth Patriarch — all fragrant stories concern this basic subject, men-ju. Nowaday, even in this country, very deeply advanced mind is sensing this subject. What tradition is, what new is... new world... old and new. And new in old, old in new. (pause)
K: Actually, this men-ju, very specific sense, and transmission, very limited sense, jukai, very exact sense, is called teaching. Internal room teaching. If it is discussed among many, like very big lecture hall, people misunderstand. Like, I go see, what is that big Christian meeting in the tv?
B: Billy Graham?
K: Billy Graham? Man appear and give big powerful speech, like dance. Like Hitler or something. It is, as you know, religious concern is very individual and very very particular, so that if all members are ready to meet in such particular subject, then larger meeting is ok, but people who do not know what's happening, or what's his own concern, and join to such special meeting, naturally what he gets is very horizontal energy. Like party energy. You do not know what's going on, but you feel fun. "This is fun!" Intuition, some kind of intuition.
Internal room teaching expresses sense of particularity, at the same time no abstract, no general. No general and particularity is little different, because of avoiding misunderstanding you take this internal room. This is sort of good example in zazen: you don't show your zazen to people, you just do it whether people see it or not. Show and meditation is completely different thing. Different... you don't have any sense of showing it to people.
And yet this teaching... internal room... from out, external concern, internal has some sense of secret. From external you cannot see internal room, so sometime this is called secret teaching. It's simply individual teaching. No need to be expressed in public.
Like driver's license. If you collect all driver's license and put in your own purse and drive, and you get a check and police say, "Which one is yours?", it's a job if you can find it when you collect many many driver's license. Driver's license, including your own driver's license, doesn't have anything to do with driving.
This internal teaching has some sense of secret teaching: unless you see, it's never been shown; even if it's exposed, you're completely blind to it. So effort to internal teaching is two figures work on this subject which is called Dharma.
K: In Japan there is secret in Dharma teaching. Do you know that? Especially way of mixing glaze. They don't tell people. In the midnight they go in the workshop and no one can see, and even very advanced disciples, they cannot see. Of course, he doesn't write down how it is mixed... all in his mind. But product, the result of his all secret, is exposed among people.
And advanced disciple, student go train some degrees of process, method, and the spirit of beginning to understand what's next to learn. "For me, this is my question." It means he cut the future with question, open the future with his own learning process with question, so teacher start to feel how to guide this interest. When one has good ability to put glaze on after whole process, then he begin to share what kind of glaze fits to what kind of glaze, and actually he teaches. He say, "Come at midnight, you can watch me."
Someone say, "You are cooking, can I watch you?" Big desire. Ed Brown4 enjoy. "Can I watch you?" Few times he let me cook... no one else. Great experience, his own experience, he watch and learn. Not only so, vice versa comes: the work you do is watched by teacher. It's very familiar, we always do this kind of thing in many many subjects. (pause)
K: Friendship, this point can be seen if (lost) abilities... abilities of situation causes such friendship. Not friendship first. Friendship is result of something which is caused by unseen communication of our abilities. Naturally you understand there is struggles, since there are no two same in this world, but men-ju is focusing to be same, so naturally struggle appear. Whether you can... your ability can accept others' method which is a form of other's ability, so if your ability is not familiar with form of other's ability, you feel sick, you feel pain, you feel it is impossible to accept this. Many religious forms, rituals, you feel a kind of unfamiliar. Some part you feel, "This is good," some part you feel, "I cannot stand it."
Tradition has such many forms which became rigid form, which is still maintenance of the form of ability which happen long time ago, and lost its vividness. Form maintain, and you meet it sometime and you feel, "This is just seashell. It's not living thing." Real form is with advance of history, advance of present moment. Like when you pick up shell fish from the sea, it loses its form. To see real form of shellfish is to see it in its place. It's very beautiful. Once you pick up in the air, it loses its maintenance of form.
Men-ju, how it is is two lights appear in the utter darkness, or two blinds appear in utter brightness, and recognize there is another one, not besides two, but besides himself. You attach like this, you're blind, too. If two lights meet in utter darkness, two of them make each other recognize they are light. If light just alone in utter darkness, light doesn't realize he's light, she's light.
This point recent problem, illusory problem, so-called guru favor. Nothing to do with you. Guru's favor is just illusion.
MK: Guru favor?
K: Yes.
J:5 Is that like guru's grace?
K: Sort of. Sense of lack of something which is in student's side, and guru stands like king or something, sort of empire of power in terms of teaching. That isn't the right way, right situation. Ignorance from ancient, some ignorance, is in present, too, so that the situation we are in is same condition as ancient, so how to lighten this condition of ignorance is all up to you, not to teacher. Guru favor is to lose yourself in the teacher. This isn't the way. You don't lose yourself. You shine the ancient darkness through your teacher and other teachers around, your friends, next generation. What you learn actually is how your teacher exist. What you learn is not what your teacher has, or what is consisted.
(lost) appear one girl at the strong empathy, great ability, empathy, and having very fine teacher, old teacher, young girl mixed up, she became old man. Because of strong empathy, whatever he speaks, she can speak. She act like old master at home (lost)... finally she had to find herself in mental hospital. Empathy is ability of learning, but one shouldn't change form completely to other, one should keep one's form. Otherwise, when one dies, other have to follow. Like Pharaoh's death, many has to follow to it because next Pharaoh doesn't allow old man.
K: What this expresses is advance of... how do you say?... moving — we can not say advance — moving of world requires a new element constantly, so new person has to go beyond tradition, old forms, which was new form right moment before. So subject of men-ju is student, not teacher. In Suzuki Rōshi's word it comes, "I'm old and weak. Young walk in front of me." Student study practice should be very vivid, and how to do with tradition is turn your head back and see it's still there. Not striving hard to reach to teacher. "Oh, he's still there, he's still there!" In that way you practice.
K: The teaching at this point become very clear what it is. Least necessity for communication is teaching. It's not particular thing: because it is necessary to communicate, words appear. So when you stuck on teaching, you lose the figures who taught it, or who is learning; you begin to lose the sense of men-ju, because teaching itself has great power when men appear in it. So I am not talking about teaching is not valuable. Many sutras very beautiful, nice to study, but what has to be studied is beyond that — beyond it is not... maybe behind that. What we have to study is the one unexplanable mind, or experience, which made those human symbols contact with us. It is simply calling. Calling is not man. Source of calling is existence — man or coyote or waterfall.
This may be very familiar with you. If you want to express yourself to family far place, it's hard. Once you can go over the difficulty to express yourself, then things are smooth. Just a few notes can send whole figure, let your friends understand. Before that you want to express fully what you have done; twenty four hours what you have done you write, and still feel, "I'm not completely expressing." You become psychoanalyst of yourself and you write down many many things. To relative or friends, just enough to see a few handwriting, strengths of touching, and even the line of holding paper is good message how you are. Your friend, or family, even they don't know, they don't sense a thing, just seeing your letter is perfect message, even before opened and read.
J: is left unexpanded — both Joyce and Judy C. are in the attendance list and the note-taker did not distinguish them.