Present: Kobun (K) · Carmelia (Carm) · Carmelia's friend Judy · Gert (Gt) · Steve (St) · Margaret · Babette · Hathaway · Judy Cosgrove · Joyce · Angie · Edie · Barbara · Sonja (Sj) · Mary Kate · Glenna (Gl) · Ruth
March 17, 1975. Ruth's House.
K: Good morning. Yesterday visited Berkeley zendo. Have you been to Berkeley zendo? Few...very nice group. Sonja mentioned once to me kind of symbolic language they use: "lay community". Berkeley zendo people, they make their activity corporated. Long time rented this house. How long? More than eight years now?
After my short talk there were questions about Dharma transmission. Always this crunchy subject! (laughter) Students picked up this strange word from the sky and wanted to know what it is, how it works.
Few times we are meeting on this subject in terms of men-ju. If you say this men, face, was Bodhidharma's word, it is mind, directly pointing man's mind. Nin-shin, man's mind. Mind to mind at this point is men-ju. Shin-ju, body to body, body transmission. Gen-ju, eye transmission. There are this kind of use of word.
K: Mahākāshyapa, Buddha's time, seemed very important existence, as you know how Mahākāshyapa came to his order. He was leader of pretty large group of practicers, and before he met with Shakyamuni Buddha, Kāshyapa family is very big. There are many Kāshyapas. You can see...imagine...how Shakyamuni Buddha was met by Kāshyapa. He brought everyone to meet with Shakyamuni Buddha.
Seems very interesting meeting from very beginning. Bunch of people met bunch of people, and there was little confusion. In Mahākāshyapa's mind there was very clear occasion in that meeting, and in disciples', followers', mind there was very much confusion. Particularly Mahākāshyapa's followers, because Shakyamuni Buddha pointed, "Come here, come here," and let him sit right beside him, and everyone came together.
And before that, from distance Mahākāshyapa kind of shocked...electric shock...for long time he taught how to be, how to practice, and yet the very alone...constant aloneness existed. "No one understand fully what I am, what I teach". And many...after meeting with many Brahmins here and there he felt something is happening. Something is going to be happened, and morning Mahākāshyapa moved toward Shakyamuni, Buddha, watched such sense during zazen they arrived Tashito (Pātariputra).1 Mahākāshyapa's mind immediately this cognition appear, "This is my teacher and I am follower". And yet many followers of Mahākāshyapa didn't know what was happening in Mahākāshyapa's mind. So after Mahākāshyapa invited...looks very strange...both of them quite old...Mahākāshyapa old and Shakyamuni Buddha. And disciple of Mahākāshyapa mind this question appear: "What's happening there?" And catching that question, Mahākāshyapa announced, "This is my teacher. From now on I am student of this man". In very beginning such occasion happen. Men-ju is like this.
Usually when Buddha became eighty years old and about leaving this world behind, this meeting...nenge-mishō2...transmission of Shōbōgenzō, Nirvana Mind. Usually we understand the men-ju, origin of men-ju, is this occasion. But when you look closely how Mahākāshyapa lived with, met with Buddha and all other people who came around Shakyamuni Buddha's existence, seems very natural historical event. No particular effort to keep such relation.
And big subject we have to be aware of this point is, Mahākāshyapa, whether he alone transmitted Dharma, or whether he is not just Mahākāshyapa, single Mahākāshyapa. Existence. If dust doesn't exist, there is no opportunity of appearance of cloud. Full conditions, like water cause temperature difference, there is no particles which make final opportunity to form cloud in the sky. Mahākāshyapa's existence was like that. Very...how do you say?...for that time it was very fortunate occasion.
K: Question arose Berkeley zendo yesterday is, Dharma transmission is possible for laymen, too? This was a question! (laughter)
Answer is "Yes".
Gl: One time someone here asked, "Is it possible for women, too?"
K: What I said? Yes?
Gl: You said, "Possible for dogs..."
K: Transmission is done beyond man and woman...maybe beneath...so to say I am a woman and it is possible to be transmitted the great Dharma...it is great fortune to be woman and transmitted the Dharma. Fortune is like fortune cookie.
Steve: Could you explore a little more the analogy of dust? You mean Mahākāshyapa's body formed Mahākāshyapa the way dust makes the formation of cloud?
K: Yes. The one who sense men-ju is possible to sense other's men-ju. To let others sense men-ju. So it was very obvious how Mahākāshyapa's ability was already within him. So meeting with Shakyamuni Buddha was possible. For long time he was with Shakyamuni as if he's another extending body of Shakyamuni, or Shakyamuni was like extending body of Mahākāshyapa.
St: How was that different from Ananda's relationship with Shakyamuni Buddha?
K: Ananda was like exposed brain of Shakyamuni Buddha. Present analogy, it is like flying, unseen and flying taperecorder. Buddha didn't need to carry it around, because it's all there. But Ananda's like very fantastic taperecorder and camera. When meeting is held, he is always there, and few years later people ask him, "What happened that day two years ago?" And Ananda begin, "It was cold day..." Whole thing he speak.
So it...There is fantastic conversation between Mahākāshyapa and Ananda. Ananda was the next transmission disciple Mahākāshyapa. Ananda, after Shakyamuni3 Buddha passed away, Ananda asked Mahākāshyapa to clarify last point. "What else? What else was there besides transmitting a robe?" It's very important subject. As you know, robe is symbol of men-ju...complete transmission. And immediately Mahākāshyapa addressed Ananda, called Ananda, and Ananda said "Yes!" Mahākāshyapa said, "Let poles fall down all together".
In Dharma combat that time they built two poles and when the discussion is done, when A win in Dharma combat and flag appear this side, and when B get win another flag fly this pole...and Mahākāshyapa said, "Let fall down two pole". Not just one, two pole, all together. And Mahākāshyapa immediately saw Ananda break up, and Ananda stood and bowed to Mahākāshyapa. That was occasion of Ananda's men-ju.
K: This appear in many many ways. Fifth Patriarch in China standing beside Sixth Patriarch. He said, "Is rice polished?" Very strict. "How are you doing? Rice polished?" "All done. Just straining process is left". Immediately Sixth Patriarch tried strain rice, and three times he tried. That night the transmission.
As you know, transmission is not permission of...succeeding of teaching business. It is simply confirming one's...how do you say?...compulsion and growth.
Question came yesterday, too...one student asked, "Understand that Dharma transmission is point one become teacher, and the master permit it?" This is question. Maybe studying such subject, too. And the one part of Dharma transmission involves that subject, but you don't need to drive twenty-four hours, even you have driver's license! Capacity of man is confirmed because it is obvious such existence needs. So whether one recognize it or not, if such occasion appear, he will teach, or he will learn.
K: Very big subject at this point is the recognition of the constancy of truth in the continuity of the life from this moment to next moment. Continuity is advance, and creativity. And we see the change of things. If it knowing of change, or seeing of change is only the stage of contemplation, it is just knowing what's going on. To be with change is to be. Change is what succession of transmission is.
So...again...when you see what continue and what maintain...what doesn't change in this continuity, very delicate subject appear. Like faith, we have carried this sense always, maybe from very beginning of birth we have started to found this faith. We do not know this word faith, it has been reliance, very neutral sense of reliance. You rest in one's arm without any thoughts or worry. Faith is constant involvin constant action our life has been, it never stops, constantly our life itself is keeping balance, center this is possible to keep. When you feel everything is ok, that is everything you have trusting, knowing everything turning ok. When someone ask you, "Do you really believe yourself, others?" Often you become shaky... "Actually, I don't believe anyone, anything". This kind of opposite thing appear.
Once it arise, no one can destroy it. Even many people say it's not worth to believe in, he's not worth to trust in. Once you believe in, trust, no one can do anything about it. At the same time this recognition, this no faith to anything. It means faith exist, but no one worth to catch it. It means faith alone. That time you feel very helpless, because no recognition single thing rest in your faith, you don't see anything in your faith. So it's very alone, helpless sensation.
Often at this point the law, or promise, hope, future, structure, positions, very impersonal, very abstractive things become object of faith, and it is still helpless, because until the object is seen as close to your life form, the faith doesn't have satisfactory sensation: This is it.
How to...if you create something like big meal, or beautiful painting, or music, you create something, once it is done, work itself take next advance, next process to travel, begin to live. How to give, like after you are alone, and you make big meal, and "I need somebody to share this". Especially when "This is fantastic! Very good!" Rich sensation, satisfaction, someone who can share this sensation appear. "To whom can I offer this thing which is my life itself?"
As we discussed last time, Way-mind, Way-mind is very basic point of communication, vibration of communication appear and it is felt by Way-mind itself, so actually, brain doesn't need to work. You already sense it, this will be done. This sensation of faith, very total emotion, beyond like, dislike, more before like, dislike, it is more intuitive understanding. Once it appear it is possible. If it doesn't appear, it never happens. Such kind of very direct...
The problem as you feel, the nuance of the use of word gives us some narrow, limited way. Like to say Sangha, both feeling, to be within Sangha is fantastic. Sangha has limitation, "I'll be outside of Sangha". In Sangha has no limitation, no edge. If Sangha is same as Dharma-dhātu then to say Sangha is something which has no edge. In this way to speak of Sangha, to speak of Dharma right after, you have to wash your mouth and wash your ear, too.
K: Very subjective right now, very personal feeling, and if I do not experience it, it is others' story. That kind of feeling, because of very historical, this transmission of Dharma is very historical concern. It is...history is nothing but Karma, and it has to be done in the karma. It means, right now we can't transmit Shakyamuni Buddha's Dharma to present time, ignoring history.
St: But Dharma itself doesn't change.
K: Dharma itself does not change.
St: This Dharma transmission is only a matter of concern because we are human beings. If we were not human beings it would be of no concern. Dharma transmission from flower to flower is not of concern to the flower.
K: No one can tell if there is transmission from flower to flower. (lost: what he said about Dōgen and the turnip) Concern of human being, of concern of Buddha it happen because we are human we use this language. Concern is from Buddha to Buddha, Dharma to Dharma. What happen is advance of Dharma, a symbol to human being.
St: (lost)
K: That is question, too. Maybe Dharma sometime doesn't need human being. But for human being to be human being is absolute necessity to transmit Dharma. If we don't have legs we don't need to (lost) We can meditate any time.
Carm: Dharma doesn't change, but the human being may see part of it, and ten years later a little bit more? Or do you see it all at once, complete, forever?
K: Quantity can be as far as we live as human being, as the living Dharma exist, quantity become bigger. Quality doesn't change. This is why Shakyamuni Buddha decided to move to the existence.
Many feels that the goal is perfect complete enlightenment, like a conquering of peak of mountain. When you are on the earth, that is seen as goal. When you are on top of mountain another goal appear. (lost. Lost) become goal, and like Sisyphus' rock which is being rolled, very interesting material, interesting thing, without Sisyphus rock climbs mountain, rock falls down. It is true, advance is promised when, advance exist when quality realizes itself.
K: Nirmāṇakāya Buddha, Nirmāṇakāya like, Nirmāṇa, what it is is our mind when we see. My eyes like this (scanning the room) my mind catches this scene. When my face moves toward this way my mind catches another scene. This is what Nirmāṇakāya is, depend on movement, my mind catches scenes in movement. Increasing world. Realm, we say. Thing you have never seen become possible to be seen.
This is another reason: Go-go no shi-gyō.4 Shigyō is practice, advancing practice, shigyō. Gogo is after satori, go is satori, after satori shigyō exist, practice goes on and it is called practice of Shitsu-go. Shitsu-go is losing. Shitsu is when I have this (cookie), I must lose it. Shigyō is practice in losing satori...and zazen continue like that, shikantaza is actually wiping traces, quite smelly traces (lost. lost)
St: Is that why the Sixth Patriarch went and lived with woodcutters for fifteen years, or was that a political matter?
K: I think so. Very unusual case, Sixth Patriarch.
St: He was a layman when he received transmission?5
K: Umhum. Fifth Patriarch very unusual man. Sometime I speak of Fifth Patriarch.
Gt: We mostly hear of the Sixth Patriarch, don't we?
K: Unhuh. He was very (lost) actually his masters6 do not stand out for a while.
Ordination as a monk was done after Dharma transmission. We have to remember this kind of case, how natural it is, it can be done, transmission is done before ordination. Usually. Or...and recognition what it is, and long period of study, finally reach to Dharma transmission. This is because of fixed idea of process. Ordination is consistent, fully consistent with Dharma transmission. It is not different thing from ordination.
Sixth Patriarch was first figure who started to (lost) this transmission thing, and again we have to see that Sixth Patriarch's time, how peoples' mind was. Sixth Patriarch just symbolic existence. We can see many many people at that time, how people were thinking things. Otherwise we can not understand, many Zen lineage appear, stream, after Sixth Patriarch. Good example is, very big current of the Rinzai and Sōtō appear, and what it is. South and North, North and South relate with Rinzai and Sōtō.
Sj: Sōtō is South?
K: I think so. And Sixth Patriarch...remember that conversation...South and East, but nature doesn't (lost) south and east. Precepts figure, Buddha-nature is common to both Rinzai and Sōtō, all current7 of Buddha's advance, advance of Buddha's life. We say human kind, but this is big subject. In terms of advance, which, we say history, like how it can be next ten years, fifty years. It is big subject.