Present: Kobun (K) · Carmelia (Carm) · Gert (Gt) · Glenna (Gl) · Judy C. · Gladys · Margot Locke (Margot, M) · Ruth (R) · Joyce · Barbara · Angie (A) · Mary Kate (MK)
March 24, 1975. Ruth's House.
K: Any questions this morning? (Silence)
Gl: Not exactly a question, but I think I understand a little bit better what transmission is. Yesterday Mary Kate and I heard Krishnamurti. I think he was trying very hard...his whole being was wanting to transmit to each person. He was very uncompromising in a way. He wanted to draw you into his space. Some people wanted to ask questions. He wouldn't go into their space. If you were willing to move along, he took you right inside his mind. It is not very clear, but somehow that extreme effort of his...seems to me that's why he was there.
K: What was the subject?
Gl: Many things were discussed, but mainly suffering and death.
Gt: Glenna, I think I understand what you mean. Many years ago Dave and I had a private interview with him. He sat silently. Talking in groups he had everybody be silent for a while...he sat there, and we were silent, and for the first time in my whole life I felt I was just right the way I was. Without saying a word. When we left...we drove home...it made quite a difference in my life...That's why I think...I understand what you mean. I dropped out of a lot of things I'd been in...I don't mean that it lasted, but at that moment I thought, "Why am I trying so hard to be something?"
R: In the end, did you say anything?
Gt: A friend was with us and asked questions. But the big thing was what happened to me in that silence.
Margot: Had you practiced zazen before then?
Gt: No!!
K: Thank you. (To Mary Kate) How was your impression?
MK: I liked listening to him. I'd heard him at Stanford for four days in a row, getting higher and higher. I felt he has a very strong projection, and that antagonizes the audience. There's a bristling attitude. He doesn't put up with any shit, so to speak. He was trying to get a guy to stop talking...that was sort of exciting. I liked him. I went to sleep part of the time. I had visions of food! I was half asleep and saw stuffed pancakes!
R: The spiritual life!
MK: I often do that when I hear you. Often of food.
Gt: When he talked he said...we were all eating..."You are going to have inner resistances to what I've said. Go out. Don't talk about it. Go down to the beach. Do something else."
MK: He pulls out definitions. "Progress is going fully armed into the enemy camp".
Gl: At one point someone was trying to take a photograph. He said, "My God! This is not an amusement park! We are serious people!" I like that uncompromising quality. I wondered, "Why is he here?" I thought transmission was kindly.
Gt: I don't think he's unkind. He said, "Do not listen to the speakah." But it wasn't anger, it was kindness of the deepest kind.
MK: Straight-forward.
Gl: I feel that way about him, too.
Carm: He hits you so you wake up.
Gt: But it's compassionate.
Carm: Oh, yes!
Margot: I watched a program on Channel 9, Ascent of Man. Bronowski was putting over the point how absolutism in man's life was very tragic and demolishing our...he brought out our...the Nazis had practiced absolute...how they'd destroyed the creative growth of man. I remember one evening...Katagiri...a young woman asked a question about what is the absolute truth, and Katagiri said, "There are no absolutes". He said, "The war in Vietnam, those who fight this war and say the enemy is the red, they are absolute, they are an absolute idea." He said, "That's why there is war, that's why we should not accept absolutes".
K: (nods, smiling. long long silence)
A: Glenna, you were asking why Krishnamurti was there. Did you ask yourself, as well, why you were there?
Gl: Yes. Sure, I had to answer that, too. I decided I was too provincial. All I did was go to the zendo, listen to Kobun, practice my viol... Travelling around is very hard life. My feeling is it's very difficult, stressful life. Why should he put himself through that?
K: (laughs)
Gl: It didn't seem to me there was much pleasure in the conventional sense for him. Some speakers come around and seem to be having a good time. I don't think he was having a good time. I agree with Gert, he came with deepest compassion. Either you come and take it the same way...one level on which he was speaking. If you insisted on being somewhere else, there was a lot of conflict.
R: It's beginning to sound as if he were awfully heavy.
Gl: When he said "serious adult person", I want to be a serious adult person. There's no flim-flam, no conning in anything. It was very exciting, and hard work.
Joyce: I was thinking about being provincial. I have a feeling I want to do less, to simplify my life. Stay home, make bread, just do simple things. Sometimes that's difficult, to simplify.
K: (is smiling)
Gl: I came away from that feeling more respect for people using drugs. I used to do that...I thought, we were looking for experience. But I think it was looking for transmission. Maybe not men-ju, face to face...but every being becomes so alive in your view...
K: (smiles) Nice to hear this. Why he was there, and why you were there... You could be different place, but this question, why you are there wherever you are is basic subject men-ju, so you carry such, maybe, seriousness so you caught that meeting in that way. Many people may live different way of acceptance of him, or acceptance of themselves with presence of him. Some people don't see him at all, even he is there and they are there.
Men-ju. Men is very strong word. It's a face, presence, and one who see real men, real face, the face which is not real disappear, and the face which is real face appear. So if we do not see the real face, that is...we wish not to see the real face. It is very obvious. If you want to see real face you do so. If you do not want to see real face, you do so. Your own real face, or other's real face, it is same way we can understand. Face can be said in different word: existence. Not reflection or imagination.
(silence)
He was kind to go. Same reason it was kind he came. If he come or go, he'll be happy, too. Everything ok. Maybe he travel (lost) in a sense. Like digging cave in the air. Our existence, individual existences are like that. Doesn't need to exist, but it exist. Whole thing is little embarrassing thing. So that we have to take care of this whole thing, and why, why I have to be in this way has to be felt.
K: Subject I picked up is a sort of scary subject because...to see a gin1 being in the mirror of nothing, this seeing of face, real face. Nothing is the most sharpest and merciless sword you have to face to it. And the concept of death is this more humanly symbolized term of this sharp sword. It comes from right to left. Because it's so fine, you do not feel at all it went through.
Transmission has to be done actually by yourself before it is done. Face to face transmission has to be faces of same person. To feel that some day, any time, it can happen, my own death, it is really scary. But subject we are facing to is such kind of subject: why I have to exist. (lost) It's subject which go beyond death. If I die now, everything is...how do you say?...that's it. Everything is closed. If you leave some regret, you have to live longer, you cannot die. If you wish to live longer it will happen, because you have something to do.
Men-ju has such maintenance of moment which doesn't...moments which do not maintain. Meeting of people like that, even it has been held a great light and you can see, you feel how it is going on, but essentially for men-ju meeting dark is...utter darkness, even you feel many thing...it is same as utter darkness, utter aloneness. You don't feel same being besides you, even you see complete perfection of all being it is still same as utter darkness. So to feel there is other being is to say to yourself, "I am awakened. I am awakened because I see this in dark". And mutual confirmation appear when you experience this. When you said "I see this", the mutual say to you, "I see this".
K: Transmission face to face, body to body, mind to mind is often called two moons, because it impossible thing is become possible, so two moons means, not a sick eye, see the double moon in the sky. Time to another time, from today to tomorrow, if time, opportunity changes usually everything changes completely, but this time to another moment changing completely, how do you say?...no change exist, this is what two moons. Two moons can be seen, two figures if it is discussed in human level.
(long pause)
Gl: Is it that there's two moons because of different places in time? If it were the same time, would there be one moon?
K: It has to be same time, two moons at a time is one moon, this is unity like full moon is a new moon.2 That is a meeting of two figures appear like that. I become new moon when I meet with my master. My master become new moon when he meet with my grand master.
Like relation of grandfather, father and grandson. Grandson see nature of son in his grandfather when he is with grandfather. This is one way to see the grandson become full moon and grandfather become new moon. Like, grandson rise on grandfather's back, and go...how do you say?...horse riding. This kind of relation exist. Suzuki Rōshi fully expressed this, "I walk slow, you go ahead". Rainy day? "We go walking in the rain. I am weak and old, you are young and strong. Walk in front of me, I'll follow you." This is expression of two moons. Former moon accept second moon to be and second moon see the first moon by back head. Not by this eye.
Margot: I was thinking of two moons like reflection in water. That would be more like a mirror. You express it much more deeply.
K: Enlightenment experience is always metaphor, similized in reflection of moon, real moon and reflection of moon. Like Dōgen spoke, water moon, when even the moonlight penetrates in the water, water doesn't break. Even enlightenment happen to one, he doesn't die. His body doesn't scatter. The height of the moon is depths of the moon. In this way is expressed. When you see moon in the depths of black water, height of moon and depths of moon is the same.
M: This is not what you meant when you said there are two moons? An entirely different conception.
K: No. Fourth Patriarch, Keizan3 in Japan spoke to his disciples when disciples (lost) ...very ripened disciple...how can I say?...like a readiness to be independent from his master, like when you have a son or daughter, you feel readiness to let them go to be independent. Meihō-sotetsu grew such a ripened stage, and yet men-ju, shihō4 transmission of Dharma wasn't done and Keizan spoke to him. "If you do not understand, if you do not realize two moons, you are not my family, you are not member of my family." It's very strict. If you say this kind of word to daughter or son, how you feel? "You are grown, but you do not understand this, you are stranger at this point." If you say so, some word come back to you. If you are not able to understand two moons, I am stranger for you. (lost) The master is talking in that way.
M: Sometimes it is hard for parents to let go. To realize there are two moons. How can I understand that more fully? Could you elaborate?
K: This is very recognition of human mind, what history is, and what doesn['t] change, and what changes. It is succession of human life. Men-ju discuss about very essential nature of this point, human life, human being. Bright full moon and new moon...when it is together so all together it is grey moon. You understand it in that way. I am grey moon. Half body is bright moon, half body is new moon. To face your confronting to future is bright moon, full moon, to face your past is new moon.
M: Facing my own past?5
K: No, past of the whole, and see that full bright moon of the Buddha Patriarchs, teachers, Tōzan6 spoke of this point. Five stages, maybe five ranks.
MK: Are you going to read to us from the book?
K: I'm reading! Five dimensions, the fifth dimension, is this grey moon. No one know who you are, you know who you are and what's happening.
Gl: The symbol for the two moons, one is dark and one is light. Which moon does each represent? The symbol for the two moons, one is a heavy line, dark line, what moon does that represent?
K: A new generation. If there is new moon, the fifteenth night's moon is there, and full moon is seen from the direction of the future, so new moon is...Keizan mention to his disciples, you recognize new moon of you. New moon is actually how master saw him. You are utter dark. If he said, "I am utter dark," then it is done, men-ju is done.
The very important subject is usual religion, we say religion doesn't need to discuss this kind of point. Man absolute and unity of this absolute and relative. If it is realized, that's all. You don't need to worry how next person is working on it. Whole concern in whether you are able to be in unity of absolute. Two moons, men-ju doesn't have such relation of one to something which is impossible to be. It is already solved, this kind of concern is solved. Solved means be as a man is whole thing. You don't need to become something else, because to be a man on this earth expresses whole thing is there. Absolute is already there before, during and after. Subject of transmission is whether you are able to see such man beside you, such existence next of you.
(long pause)
K: Men-ju is completely different aspect from, say, to practice and attainment. Practice doesn't make any sense, and attainment doesn't make any sense when you're concerned to men-ju. Practice and attainment is concerned of human mind. Men-ju is different...how do you say?...angle to see the maintenance of being, the continuity of being. Man's centralized idea is practice and attainment. Dharma. Centerized idea is men-ju.
A: Sensei, if we come together in order to practice together, are we coming together to practice together in order to maintain transmission?
K: Yes. We don't feel so. We feel we are doing this for nothing. Not for you, not for anybody. Just to feel right. You say this feels right to do, even though it doesn't cause any result to you. Feel right even it is hard sometime. Most of time you feel it is just fun, or nothing to do, no effort to do so.
A: What is our responsibility for the future?
K: To be himself, to be particular existence where you are is whole effort of responsibility.
A: Nothing special.
K: You don't need to have sense to be teacher for next generation. Just to be how you wish to be. For there is no future. That sounds fine. Dōgen spoke, "If you do not see the teacher, you are not the disciple. If you not see disciple, you are not teacher".
This kind of very strict idea comes in, you don't need to see someone as follower or teacher, but you have to see something in others' existence. Actually, our true self, our true mind is always open to see such being, and when it comes, and when such being comes to face to you, you completely open and accept. At this point all sorts of ego-centered, self-centered functioning of your mind is protect us of true mind, not exploded. Seashell have a shell, bird has a wing, what is carried by both is the same life. We suffer the clash of the ego-centered idea between people as much as we enjoy, too, but what is the basic most center concern7 is to find such existence, is to meet without any hindrances, which is will of ego-centered samādhi between you and others. To wipe them away, you meet with such existences. Finally you have discovered that the one you have really wanted to see, to meet with, was yourself.
Utter darkness, I said, you're fully enlightened is same as utter darkness, blinded mind, blind eye which cannot see things because it is too bright. (lost) ...that kind of utter darkness exist. Now you see fully enlightened one, and fully ignorant one the same kind of form and (lost) of men-ju. Recognition of one's ignorance is men-ju with wisdom, so you meet with yourself. The wiping of constant enlightenment is again to be ignorant in truth. Ignorant in truth is to be enlightened. You have to wipe your awakening constantly, to look into your own zazen, all these kind of subjects are there. We do not feel those in each zazen, actually zazen is all counting basic subject of our life, so I am not talking something unusual thing. Like look into zazen with binoculars.