Present: Kobun (K) · Ann · Angie (Ang) · Ruth · Barbara · Joyce · Nena · Evie · one person the note-taker left as "?" · Glenna (Gl) · Carmelia (Carm) · Margot · Rob · Hathaway1 · Gert · Peg (P) · Judy C.
March 31, 1975. Ruth's House.
K: Did you have good weekend? Last night I came back from Santa Cruz sesshin and I chanced to see tv movie about Moses. Very exciting movie. One scene particularly impressive was fire of life come to the rock, carves wisdom hard rock...Commandments. Everyone know this occasion, even though what Commandments truly mean is not understood. Each hits of fire carves words. Right before that, whole scene is in the light, and only Moses, figure of Moses were buried in these lights. He holds other side of rock, cannot see what's going on. Fire spiral...arrow of spiral.
The day before, Saturday night, I was supposed to be in sesshin, but I couldn't leave to Santa Cruz because old man next become sick. Many people know...very...retired...how do you say?...military? He has no wife, helper; he finally became drunk and (lost) These few weeks I was worrying what he was doing. Met him in sick bed, took him to my house. He couldn't walk. First dish of (lost), let him eat, and purpose was to bathe him like a child, but he couldn't. He's huge, so heavy to carry! Finally both of us fell down on kitchen floor. He suddenly felt dizzy... Had to call ambulance.
That evening I had a chance to see Jesus Christ in the tv. Moses in tv. Moses and Jesus, on the same time they are acting in the tv...switching, that one and this one (switching channels).
They are very beautiful story in the past. Very familiar. Those extraordinary, unusual lights were lit by man, but important thing is, we are able to experience what they experience. We can understand what was experienced by them. Like...fingertip of finger gets hot, and whole body knows how, whole other part of body senses how it's feeling...Hung on the cross like rabbi or frog! It's crazy to do so...it's completely crazy thing people do. And yet, it happens. Not as others' story, but their own story. When Jesus Christ: "Forgive them, they don't know what they are doing!" Like screaming...sounds of fire which it express its own sound, and people can hear, but cannot understand what the sound mean, what the meaning of the sound.
When Moses comes back from high mountain holding rock, two pages of rock, like this, depths of valley very chaotic energy going on...again very primitive scene. Ocean of desire took form with human bodies. Wine, sex, and somewhat...I was (he makes an astonished face). I couldn't see...just movement of energy...looks like man and woman's body. They move, so face, the same as fire, spiral fire, spinning fire which hit the rock.
Problem is, these are not others' story. Everyday senses of our life is like that. Depths of our mind, there is always such struggles and unfold...meeting of energies, sometime very painful, and it is resolved, it is very pleasant, peaceful, gives us very deep happiness to be.
Great is the human mind which...how do you say?...sealed such figures in the history, however occasions were. Sometime very bloody, because of such situation like that. Like birth of something has always fluid and not very hard material, well-organized. Very chaotic, painful, Moses' time, Christ' time in the West, in the East...same kind of condition. Larger sense, deeper sense, in human history it was very remarkable time.2 We have nowadays quite similar situation as such time. Probably it has been always like that, up to now, but in terms of universal awareness, everyone's awareness on chaotic energy, we have very much similar situation as very primitive...so-call-it...birth of world religions...and similar condition is seen in the Renaissance time in the West and East. Around same time whole world were involved in solving some problem, living very (lost) consciousness about how to be, how to continue to maintain our life on this earth.
K: Someone told me interesting experiment about an ant, little ant. Ant3 crawl on paper like this, he goes all around, corner to corner and cutting across paper and go another side of paper, and crawl around...almost all...whole space sealed by his feet...he knows where he went. And finally he came back same point he was dropped, and begin to meditate: to melt in the paper, or to fly from the paper?...And he begin to shake his head, and start once more, like Nietzsche...same thing...This more human recurrence, are...you say?...Come around. Over and over again, and now it is finished, here it comes once again. This is what he said. 'I know it. Let's do it once again.'
K: There is another impressive scene. Baptism. Wear cloth...very wild, like primitive man, almost naked, fur, loincloth, wearing like kesa, little kesa, and standing running water, baptise people. At this point there is no need what he is doing. Important thing is what is happening in their mind, in their being which is actually realized by people what it is. Like, you don't need to understand lying in the hot bathtub...you don't need to understand...You just be there and cleanse yourself. You feel something completely different feeling from standing beside, watching. Imagination, even it is fantastic imagination, you cannot reach to the true, actual experience. Even you don't have any knowledge, if you do it, you can understand it. You just do it and experience it. Water...wind...sunlight...they are not wet, not strong, not bright or warm, but you are cold and strong and light and warm.
(pause)
K: We are studying about men-ju in terms of successions of truth to Dharma. Difficulty is...if Dharma exist, it doesn't need to have man...like...before earth is formed, during earth is formed, after this earth is...this...how do you say?...maybe broken, or destroyed...Dharma is Dharma. In this sense Dharma is independent from people's existence, and yet to speak this way has no meaning, because such Dharma is in the realm of metaphysic. Important thing is, such Dharma is experienced by existence.
Subject...men-ju relate with this. Truth which go through existence...truth in the phenomena is what we are now concerning. This relate with basic question, Why, how...why it is so. Why I am here and why all of you are existing in this way. This basic question which arise from our body and mind is same question: why truth exist. In another word, why Buddha appeared on this earth. What was the reason Buddha appeared on this earth? Similar symbolic expression can be seen in Moses' existence, and many prophets concern. Many many peoples' mind which saw, which experienced, so-called it: Gods, Goddess, God. Question of basic reincarnation...why he...why it reincarnated into human body? Hope you take these words very neutral...neutral means our own question which before we spoke...why I am here is same question, whether it appeared from the human body, or from the size of form of universe which we haven't yet known...
Question...this question doesn't have any answer. Answer is before question. Actually, in the root of question there is the answer. So when you go into the question, the answer is there. So go into the root of question is actually your action of answer. Answer which is acted by you is real answer to this question. Fortunate thing is where we are in action of this answering to your own basic question: why I am; very certain thing is, meet someone else, something else which goes with you...you cannot be alone at this point. So true question always have, has...impersonal nature, having person in it. So this impersonal nature, which true question has, always include others' existence in it, too, so naturally what happens the next person who comes along with you. This is why we can see people around, and truly see...not just stand besides. Truly understand and feel others are also same as myself.4
K: Meeting of Rujing5 and Dōgen was like that. When you imagine Rujing is awaiting, waiting for young Dōgen in the meeting place called Myōkōdai,6 early morning, and young Dōgen come and burn incense in front of Rujing and saw each other, and Dōgen begin to bow. It was first meeting. Bow. Full five-body bowing, bow flat on the floor. And Rujing, seeing this young man he spoke, "Dharma gate of men-ju, face to face transmission is accomplished".
Rujing, old master Rujing was famous, his nickname was Kaminari oyaji: Thunder-dad. Do you have such word? Very short temper and very quick response. If you are sleepy, always like thunder hitting gong. He used to hit people with sandal if he doesn't have a stick. He pick up his sandal and hit people. Attendant was surprised because this thunder master look so strange, unusual from his everyday action, so relaxed and full of...how do you say?...tenderness, and say such thing: "Dharma gate" — "Dharma of face transmission is accomplished". Attendant is so surprised.
What we have to see is, this is before. Dōgen bowing, it was already done. Seeing his...like faster than...seeing each other happened faster than following body reaction. We are actually living such world. Thunder master is too late, actually too late, Thunder is too late, light is before him.
(pause)
Have you something to speak? Or opinion?
Carm: I think I understood this. You said Dharma is independent of man. Would you elaborate? Would you elaborate?
K: At that time Dharma is completely blind and deaf. Man is completely blind and deaf. It's nonsense... Like, if you see sky is very bright light, but in vacuum, light is utter dark. For existence, light is bright and Dharma, which is dark in the brightness of man is not experienced, so in another word, only when existence actualize it Dharma exists. Man's existence and Dharma's existence is same occasion. Example, what made Moses Moses and what made Christ Christ. Very important point to know, and what makes you as you. Same sense as Moses Moses, Christ Christ, Buddha Buddha is the point we're concerning. The relation is Buddha expresses Dharma by his existence, and Buddha was expressed by existence of Dharma. Buddha is expressed by Dharma and Dharma is expressed by Buddha. Existence of Dharma. Buddha is expressed by Buddha.7
P: Kobun, does it mean, "To live by the Dharma", to choose what I've got?
K: Yes. Exact choice. You are the exact choice.
P: Yes.
K: It's not the other way. You choose something, it's not like that. You are chosen by.
P: But the Buddha and Dharma...one has it and the meaning of to choose it is not to want anything else. To accept it. Because you might as well...
K: Yes. It must be a little hard to catch my talk.
J:8 Are you saying it's important to understand why I'm alive, why people are alive?
K: Yes. Alive is important, not understanding of it. Understanding of it isn't important. To be, to give our life to something is important.
J: I could do that without understanding.
K: Yes, by doing so you are done so. Relation is like that. So understanding is actually action which doesn't need understanding. Real understanding is action itself. Understanding of it is in it.
J: So there's no real action that doesn't include understanding in it?
K: Yes, real action always contains understanding of it.
Gl: The problem is that desires are in that action, too. The desire to go ahead and do it anyway.
K: Desire creates problems, but it's ok. Life is a problem. We have to admit it. Only when we respect it, it shows us why it is so.
Ang: The basis of the verb "to do" in all Western languages is "to revere". So we've known that a long time.
K: That's very nice. (long silence)
Margot: Is it like, "A rose is a rose is a rose"...or "I am what I am, I'm Popeye the sailor man"? I was looking at the beautiful flowers...each flower is so perfect, like a fan, or a butterfly. But I think it's much simpler for a flower to be a flower than for me to be me.
K: Actually, it's very simple. Full effort is very simple. To see it is complicated. Total involvement is most simple way.